Hey all!

After talking with a few people and getting some of their input on current issues regarding the RP, I would like to open up this topic to address and look into any concerns that anyone here may have with the current RP rules or any other general issues regarding the RP. Honest opinions are certainly welcome and encouraged, and wherever I can, I will do my best to deliver on the requests that are made. If I'm unable to deliver for whatever reason, I will give a detailed explanation why and we can discuss whether that reason is a satisfactory one.

Please be patient in waiting for my responses. I will do my best to check here and reply regularly, but I work very strange hours and so my replies may not follow any specific pattern. I will, at the very most, try to address issues at least once per week.

I'm going to ramble a bit, and hopefully something helpful will come out in the end.

When I was scouting out whether I wanted to reactivate my old account to start playing XI again or roll somewhere that seemed to have an active RP community I looked at a number of RP LS forums. Admittedly, there aren't a whole ton of them left anywhere, but ToV's stood out for one reason. It had some rules. Rules are great if they're thoughtful, they should help frame the RP's world, ie: "Lastly, your character has the appearance that they do in the game, ie. no manthras, etc."

To me, I read into the rules posted at the time as attempting to protect the awe of new expansions; people would enter Lufaise Meadows together and be some of the first people to find a way back to Tavnazia after the war, or on one of the first barges made commercially available to adventurers to Aht Urghan. It imposes some limitations on what you can do with your character, but there's a reason behind it.

Then I started reading the fine print once my copy of XI was in the mail and started to question the reason for the rule. A number of characters already had contact with the Near East. What's the problem? Well, it makes the above rule a bit questionable. Obviously, regardless of the rule above, Aht Urghan was in existence throughout the entire duration of the ToV RP, and well before it. Does the rule make much sense in context of the players in the story? I really couldn't fathom it once I'd gotten to know everyone. We tended to have six people who tended to attend almost every session. Of them, one was a corsair and another a blue mage, both with dealings in the Near East. If we got to know them in any regard, I'm sure the dog would be out of the bag. Why have the rule anymore when exceptions made have already undermined the only reason I can think of for the rule: to experience the storyline of the game as the titular heroes of Vana'diel as closely to the game's expansion timeline as possible. Rules being simple and for good reason with as little impedance to individual creativity is a good goal to aim for and the content restrictions just seem out of place given context of the members.

On a more general note, I think there is a lot of social division amongst members. There is a ton of history amongst the members that came before me that I'm honestly in the dark about but I think because of it there's a lot of misunderstandings and distrust. People come together to RP but seem distanced or even at odds afterwards and there's very little team spirit. People don't feel like a team but an amalgamation of cliques that happen to get together to RP two days a week. I'm not really sure how to address this but I see it as being a major hurdle that needs to be overcome before things run smoothly. It can't be expected that everyone will agree all the time, but it shouldn't be the same groups of people not seeing eye to eye with the other groups of people. Individuals in the middle wind up feeling like they have to chose one side or the other because there isn't a middle ground and that's a terrible place to be in, too.

It's late (early?) for me but I'll add more as I think of it.

Thanks for your effort and concern, Avina.

At the moment the only input I can give is a reply to Korghan about the Aht Urhgan thing. It was decided as a group that Aht Urhgan would be open IC as long as it was used sparingly and that any information acquired from the missions would be left unused until we do the missions IC. (If I remember the discussion correctly) The reason for this is that Aht Urhgan access is granted by a quest that isn’t dependant on doing Aht Urhgan missions. Now zones from say CoP, WotG or Abyssea are closely tied to mission plots, meaning that the expansion plot is tied to the ability to enter certain zones. That is why they are still off limits IC while Aht Urhgan is not.

This can also be tied into the job comment. It gets a bit tricky with some jobs, but I feel and I believe others feel that in the interest of keeping the game playable for the majority of potential RPers that no job should be off limit IC even jobs from expansions that we technically can’t access IC yet. The usual plan when this happens is to make up an alternate story about how the char acquired their skills.

Personally, I'm for opening up Aht Urgan zones. Even if we are still barred from missions and jobs for the expansion. The zones are still there, a lot of the characters have links, and so many exceptions have been made already that it seems silly to pretend they don't exist. Tavnazia should stay closed until "Opened" because none of us really have an easy way to get there, or any real reason to go. But everyone's going to have a different opinion on this.

But a point I want to raise higher though, is that I don't think the RP group meets enough. The one or two nights a week to advance missions is fine, but I personally think the shell needs to be more walk up friendly. I know people flip between multiple shells, so that does make it more difficult to know off of the top of your head if someone is busy or willing to RP. But if you walk by someone and toss them a /tell, that you wanna RP, that should be encouraged. If you wanna do it over the shell or in a party since you're having another conversation over the social, it should be encouraged.



************ WARNING: Non-Candy Coated Text Follows ************

Now on a less that happy note, I'm in a unique position from everyone else as a semi-villain. Since this puts me at odds with everyone in the shell on a IC level, I am going to have to deal with a lot of things differently. While I'm not going to name anyone, since they probably know who they are (And Don't Ask), I've had a few problems with people using OOC knowledge to catch me, see through a plan or disguise.

I've walked by people I was looking for when I didn't see them IC. One incident that comes to mind was me looking for Avina in Sandy. I walked less that 25 feet away from her while she was at the AH, but she was wearing a hooded tunic facing away from me. I can't smell her, I can't taste her presence, I walked right past her and kept looking. (Basically wasting ten minutes looking in areas I knew she wasn't in OOC) I'm not sure what your policies are on disguises and invis/sneak/deodorize. And I know it's easy to see me when I'm in party even when I'm fully cloaked. You can tell when I'm in the zone since I'm in party, and you can just hit the down button to know my exact position. But a player's sensory abilities shouldn't be that much higher than a monster's.

And even if you pretend not to know I'm there, some people will act differently once they know I am. They'll get more defensive, and paranoid. An example of this being the hostility the character was met with at introduction, people knew OOC I was a badguy, but no one knew who I was IC. When your character greets one new person on the street with a hello, but is instantly suspicious of another, it's obvious you're not playing fair. I haven't decided how I'm going to handle this, but not joining the RP party seems like the best start. I'd stay out of the Shell as well, but then I'd miss the conversations I was trying to listen in on ten feet away.

On that note, I'm going to have to do a fair amount of my RPing outside of the shell. If I have to pull someone's strings, get hired, spy, blackmail, threaten, or anything else that needs to be quiet, I need to keep everyone else in the dark about it for it to be effective. This creates sort of an unfair paradox. If I can spy on you, you should be able to spy on me. Well, if you are in the same zone and send me a tell, I might let you into the party or let you know what's happening in /tell. As long as you're in a good position for hearing me. Even if you don't know IC, it's already been proven that some people are going to react differently to minion #8 if you know they're working for me OOC, or if they have hired me to do something.

"But Kirious, you use OOC info too!" No, I don't. If you said it over the main shell I was listening. Kirious DOES HAVE A LINKPEARL for the main shell. He revealed it a few sessions ago, and he's had it since the first time he was in Sandy. Kirious has mentioned that he isn't the only one in his field. If you are talking in a city out in the open(Especially Jeuno, Norg, Bastok, Windurst, or San'doria) I might have a general idea of what happened depending on how "High Profile" of a target you are. If you have a conversation out in the middle of Gustaberg, I probably won't know anything about it. I might know you left Bastok, but that's it. If I'm looking for you and you're walking through Bastok, I'll know what city you're in, and maybe even what zone of it if you tarry too long. The exceptions to that will be if you're actively hiding.


As far as all of that goes, I do want to give a shout out to Kaolla, who has been a GREAT sport so far as far as all of that villainy goes.


*************************CANDY SHELL RE-APPLIED*****************************






Finally, PvP. I didn't get a lot of responses in the thread, but after hearing about people talk about in out during Besiged, I think it was more along the lines of people not seeing it than not being interested. If you don't want to PvP, I can respect that. But I'm also going to have to ask you to be more submissive in RP. If I pull a sword on you and you don't want to fight, don't stand up with your chest puffed out daring me to do it just because you know mechanics say I can't. Take a step back and say something along the lines of "I'd rather not fight, yadda yadda." If three people pull a sword on me in the middle of Windurst, I will dare you to do it, and I'll go PvP that fight. Realize that there will be consequences for fighting in the middle of a city, and we might have to set a time limit up or something, but I WILL PvP it. If you're in a "Safe Zone" for your character, that can be taken into account too. If you catch me in Muckvix's shop, I'm not worried about guards breaking the fight up. If I'm in Neptune's Spire, then I'll probably be looking for mercenary volunteers. The warehouses in Bastok might have a similar effect as Neptune's Spire to a lesser degree. Same thing with Norg to a MUCH WORSE, FOR YOUR OWN SAKE DON'T FIGHT ME IN NORG. Unless you're Nodem or someone else with links there.


Edit:

This can also be tied into the job comment. It gets a bit tricky with some jobs, but I feel and I believe others feel that in the interest of keeping the game playable for the majority of potential RPers that no job should be off limit IC even jobs from expansions that we technically can’t access IC yet. The usual plan when this happens is to make up an alternate story about how the char acquired their skills.Kaolla

I second this.

I'd like to see more creative freedom. When I was told about the shell it was a RPLS that RP's and does missions on the side. But after being here a bit… It feels like a RPLS that does missions and RP's on the side.

My previous RPLS' were equipped full time and people would hop in and out of RP's. Even if it was people bitching over the shell about a goblin RP was doing to them.

We also didn't follow mission lines or use mission knowledge. Our characters flowed more freely so to say and I like this. It's just my personal preference on that I guess. It gives you more freedom and you wrote your own plots. Missions didn't dictate life were it feels here that we can't really develop without the missions. The Missions are the only thing that makes our characters advance…

On a more general note, I think there is a lot of social division amongst members. There is a ton of history amongst the members that came before me that I'm honestly in the dark about but I think because of it there's a lot of misunderstandings and distrust. People come together to RP but seem distanced or even at odds afterwards and there's very little team spirit. People don't feel like a team but an amalgamation of cliques that happen to get together to RP two days a week. I'm not really sure how to address this but I see it as being a major hurdle that needs to be overcome before things run smoothly. It can't be expected that everyone will agree all the time, but it shouldn't be the same groups of people not seeing eye to eye with the other groups of people. Individuals in the middle wind up feeling like they have to chose one side or the other because there isn't a middle ground and that's a terrible place to be in, too.Korghan

I agree with this. I'm guilty of it myself, hell we all are in some way. I'm not bashing by saying this either. It makes it harder on new people.


I also worry about the ENDING of ToV. After all the missions are done. This is saying SE doesn't nuke FFXI before we can complete it, and/or we lose people due to RL or are bored with FFXI all together. There will be nothing left for this shell. Soon as the last mission is done, maybe a few wraps up and then… Nothing. A RP shouldn't end because the missions were the only thing keeping the group together. Missions shouldn't be the factor that keeps a group together to begin with.

~Nod

I am going to be taking the time to write back full replies to all these concerns, but I want to take a moment really quick to respond to something regarding Kirious.

I've been talking with some people about the whole Blue Mage thing and I think it would be best for you to be able to take up BLU IC, incorporating AU too if you so wish. This RP is supposed to be fun more than anything and sometimes I get caught up in having everyone work under the same rules and whatnot, and its clear you'd be enjoying yourself more if you were a BLU, to by all means put together a story for it (or secretly have been a BLU all along in hiding, I don't really mind either way).

I am going to be taking the time to write back full replies to all these concerns, but I want to take a moment really quick to respond to something regarding Kirious.

I've been talking with some people about the whole Blue Mage thing and I think it would be best for you to be able to take up BLU IC, incorporating AU too if you so wish. This RP is supposed to be fun more than anything and sometimes I get caught up in having everyone work under the same rules and whatnot, and its clear you'd be enjoying yourself more if you were a BLU, to by all means put together a story for it (or secretly have been a BLU all along in hiding, I don't really mind either way).Avina

*Streamers, Boxed Wine, and Cupcakes with Sprinkles.*

The main thing that I've always had a problem with is the restricted access to zones - mainly the AU cities. I could care less for the outside zones, but the cities… please, oh please, can we have access to the cities? Sunday we stopped the RP dead in the road to go do Besieged with just about the entire shell.

To be told to "Pretend it's 2006" is somewhat insulting, and a completely unacceptable from a senior member. The member base has changed drastically since the original rules and decisions regarding expansion content were made.

I have been playing since 2004. I can't exactly remember what areas went with what story line, and I'm not going out of my way to look them up in a group RP. I don't like having to look things up to make sure that it's not out of my league character/cannon/content wise.

When something I do for fun becomes a chore to do, there is something wrong =\


This shell needs to evolve a bit to fit the changing people and environment(current expansions), even if only a little.


Those two things are the only problem I have with the LS…

More free, spur of the moment RPs would be nice to see! No one has ever asked me to RP outside of scheduled ones, but I've said a few times that I'm more than open to it. A lot of times I'm just wasting time on the AH when I am on.


All in all, Avina you have done a good job getting a shell together! You have attracted lots of people from across several different servers. We all obviously saw something in you and your LS - We're all still here, too. Keep up the good work, and thank you for opening things up for discussion.

… I think everyone has already brought up all the points I'd make. Still, I'm gonna stress some of them.

Random/Walk-up RP:
I will CRY with JOY if this becomes more popular. Not all walk-up RP has to end in an Epic Adventure; I'd settle for a quick IC conversation about the weather if I bumped into someone at the auction house. The lack of spontaneous RP is something I am missing from my days on Asura and in (yikes!) World of Warcraft. Scheduling events has it's place and purpose; I wouldn't suggest getting rid of it because it pretty much guarantees that on a specific day, there -will- be people around. However, as a group we shouldn't rely solely on scheduled days.

Suggestion: ChildrenOfAltana used the fountain in N.Sandy and TheGauntlet used the Steaming Sheep in P.Bastok as their "regular hang-outs". Perhaps we should "assign" a location where it would be natural, IC'ly, for people to go and just hang out and meet with and/or wait for others. Also, a listing of who's open for walk-up RP, including any restrictions (i.e. "I don't RP while I'm on X-job or Y-day").


Regarding Expansions/Missions and RP:
This is an area I've been having problems with. I've been biting my tongue and re-writing things left and right to fit the rules, and there are some areas I'm just… not happy with what I've had to do to conform. One of the biggest things that have been chafing me is that a lot of it is old content, and there are some things that are very noticeably referenced/easily seen. Cavernous Maws, Shattered Telepoints… these aren't a ??? on a random spot on the ground. Browsing the auction house, one can find several items that specifically mention Tavnazia.

Suggestion: Perhaps, instead of denying IC knowledge of an entire Expansion/Mission, a limit should be placed on how far -into- an expansion one can have IC knowledge? For example, with CoP, current IC knowledge can be limited to the first three Promyvian zones, up to just before entering the Webs (since I know Promy runs are on the horizon). For Abyssea, Joachim and his buddies are around and have spoken to players about the plight of his world, but no-one has found Traverser Stones yet.

I am confused about ToAU. Above, Kaolla has said that general access to the Expansion/zones is allowed IC'ly. But, like Korghan, Kirious and Aurou, I have been under the impression that it is not… an impression that was reinforced just this past Sunday. And I share Aurou's frustration/annoyance on the "pretend it's 2006" comment.

Also, I agree with Nodem's suggestion of shifting focus away from missions and more towards freestyle RP and creativity. While I'm -very- interested in seeing/doing all the different Expansions and Missions content, there are many things I can't see as being part of my character's personality/motivations.

Currently, Draenen isn't exactly hero material; she wouldn't have helped save the Star Sybil and Windurst, she's too busy running errands for Kupipi and bringing supplies to outposts. Draenen would have an interest in Tavnazia (thanks to THF AF storyline) but she's not likely to run into that strange boy; someone will probably have to collar her and drag her up through the Promys with promises of treasure, else she's more likely to steal a boat, sink it, and get washed up in Tavnazia.

With that being said, I don't fully agree with Nodem's mention of not using mission knowledge. I personally believe that some mission knowledge can (and should) be used, else some players might not have a reason to leave their Mog House in the morning. However how one came across said knowledge can sometimes be tailored to fit one's character. Using Draenen again as an example, when her sister Malay died, Malay willed her house and all her possessions to Draenen; it's possible that somewhere in the piles of knickknacks and trinkets, there's a cerulean crystal used for Sky access.

Suggestion: Creation and use of an area on the forums devoted to CONSTRUCTIVE discussion and criticism of these snowflake scenarios, so that there are no issues/conflicts/glaring breaks from lore.

Use of PvP
As already discussed here in Kiri's thread, I think the use of the ballista/brenner zones would be nice for certain conflicts.

Suggestion: Creation of area on forums for discussion among members on acceptable requirements/rules/limits for use of what PvP the game has, a finalized list of said agreed rules, a list of acceptable methods of backing out of a fight and/or fixing/scripting fights, and creation of a listing of those who are "PvP Flagged" IC'ly.

First off, I want to put this out there right now: the stance of "Pretend its 2005/2006" is not a linkshell policy and it never has been. If it had been, I would not have given the okay for Daltan, Zetireti, Nodem, Saerun, Falgor, and Jericho all the good 'OK' to go to Aht Urhgan, RP Aht Urhgan jobs, and Sae even wrote a story about it interacting with the passport NPC. Pinning that stance on the LS is something that just isn't true here, as Korghan pointed out in his post.

More concerning to me is why that's being brought up here in the first place. It's obvious that some among you disagree with what Kjara had to say on that matter (giving her opinion, you realize) and now its turned around and its bashing her. Stop. This topic has nothing to do with Kjara, or what she said. Unfortunately she's seen this topic already and it has really hurt her, guys. If you want to put a gun to someone's head then you put it to mine, because I run this thing. The passive-aggressive stuff that's going on between members really needs to stop and I admit I am guilty of it sometimes too.

Addressing specific concerns:

I'll start with Aht Urhgan and explain my stance on that in a little more detail and how we get into the situation we are now with that topic. I think it helps to understand the history a little bit.

Aht Urhgan, like Chains of Promathia and the other expansions was originally locked entirely. People avoided it and while it came up in conversation as existing no one went there. Aht Urhgan kinda got busted open prematurely when we recruited an RPer who really wanted to RP Blue Mage. He really had his heart set on it, and at that time, he agreed he only wanted to be from Aht Urhgan. Since I think the RP should be fun for those who participate in it, I decided to make an exception. Many others wanted similar exceptions and in the nature of wanting to make things fun for people I have told many others that this is fine.

Since I did a substantial rewrite of the rules, the Aht Urhgan policy as stated in the rules is this:

"Treasures of Aht Urhgan
Lore from this expansion should be used carefully. No story from the mission line is allowed in RP, as this area is only open as a necessity for characters to use jobs such as Corsair, Blue Mage, and Puppetmaster, given the nation's importance to those jobs backstory."

That's how the lore from Aht Urhgan has been treated thus far in RP and that information has been there for months. Please note the following: Aht Urhgan isn't locked. I certainly try to discourage people to put some distance between them in the nation if they are able to because we currently have a whole enormous chunk of the RP storyline that is going to be devoted the Aht Urhgan missions, assaults, salvage, einherjar, and so on and so forth. As people will likely do some of those things with Aht Urhgan access being granted, that's something that I feel we lose.

I don't really mind people hanging around in the city, but the reason I discourage it also is because no one has really told me about a good way or time for it to happen. We're going to be getting involved in Chains of Promathia soon, which I am planning on being a large departure in terms of how we do things to try and bring some more excitement in the RP. I certainly feel a little worried that a lot of my thought into how to make this new stuff exciting is going to get burned out by people jumping ahead to Aht Urhgan.

There is also a concern that I have with regards to this that there are still members of the original RP cast around, and a few of them who left are planning to return. Many of these RPers, myself included, made plans for their characters with the understanding that some events would play out in a certain order, and these plans have been in the works for years.

I'm not saying that the RP needs to follow the same model it always has but I read a lot of things like that the old cast is gone and we need to cater to the new majority. This is immediately going to put people on the defense and on edge… what I have literally, never seen anyone say is,

"I know some of the original members made plans that are important to them, I'd like to do something a little different though, can we find a middle ground?"

That step has always been reserved for me to figure out. And it comes off as a bit rude to those who had the pre-existing plans… for those of you who I made exceptions for to get into a little bit more lore with AU than I normally would be in favor for, remember that I made the exception and would talk to the other concerned parties about the issue and it was OKed because it was so important to you. These plans that these RPers have, are just as important to them, and it would probably help a great deal if I wasn't the only one pegged with having to figure out how to satisfy both ends of the dispute and instead work towards a mutual goal. But if you put it all on me to figure out alone… I can do my best but I often feel like I'm a guy standing with a big steak surrounded by hungry hounds.

Other expansions:

Other expansion content has proven difficult to incorporate for the reasons Kaolla decsribed. We, at this point, ignore the presence of Cavernous Maws (WotG) because if we go to the past the plotline back there will trump everything else (why bother saving the world in the present if the present isn't going to exist?). Abyssea too has been pushed and treated as not currently taking place because to ignore Joachim's plea to the adventurers would make the RP cast seem extremely apathetic. That's at least the reasoning behind it… if you disagree, I'm certainly willing to listen and consider any other ways that you could possibly spin it that could incorporate these things.

Another aspect I'd like to point out is keeping some things closed off extends the longevity of the RP, in a group that works with missions like this. This RP has gone on for about two and a half years and done rather well in that time, and I think partly is that the plot has been able to be focused on certain points while others were left behind. It also saves certain areas, like Korghan pointed out, to be explored and be 'new' to the characters. If we unequivocally open everything up all at once, plots get scattered and once we burn through everything that's 'new'… well, its very possible we aren't getting new content in this game to further explore. Do we want to bust it all open?

Creative freedom:

With regards to this, Nodem, could you elaborate on what more you would like to see in regards to this? I don't really know what it is you are asking to be changed… does the suggestions I've talked with you recently about regarding CoP cover any of that? If not, what other things are you looking for?


There are some things I didn't get to but I have to get back to work. I will write back with regards to the rest soon hopefully.