At this time I would like to make 2 more suggestions.

My first suggestion I have made before though I’m not sure if it’s remembered. I suggest that we have optional OOC LS meeting in game in addition to IC scheduled RPs. These meetings can occur once a month or even once a week at first if we need to. During these meetings we can plan IC events and also discuss plans for our characters what goals we have for them IC what motivates them and even how other players and/or their characters perceive another player’s character. This can also be a good opportunity to clarify what should be known IC and what should not be known IC about any individual plot or character. I suggest having these meeting in game in order to facilitate a more real-time discussion than forum posts can support. I also suggest that some rules be created for OOC meetings in order to ensure that everyone can have a voice and that OOC meetings cannot simply be taken over by any individual who happens to be the fastest typist or the most outspoken. These meetings should also not occur on days that we also have scheduled RP. This will keep members from trying to rush OOC talk in order to get to RPing faster. I think the majority of the problems we’ve been having with RP stem from a lack of OOC communication.

My second suggestion is that at the end of this thread and after the LS has a few OOC meeting in game that each member be allowed to submit revised versions of the rules to this thread. These revised rules can them be discussed and melded together into an amalgam document that will serve as a new set of rules for the LS. The new rules should continue the spirit of the old rules but also make allowances for growth within the shell and strive to be a clearer document than the old rules. I also suggest that we vote eventually to determine who will type up the final version of the rules. This person will not be deciding what the rules are, the LS as a whole will do that. This person would simply be chosen to type the rules and to phrase them in a way that is both easily understood and logically organized. To put it simply (to those who have studied American History) we have the LS Articles of Confederation, we need a LS Constitution.

Creative Freedom:

As in we don't need missions to develop like it seems we do here. (Drae also hit this point a bit.) I know it's not fully true but it feels that if we don't do missions, we don't go with "The Group" we have zero access to any areas. For instance, Dynamis and Sky.

I know you all took a group with you and it's been mentioned a few others have gone. But last time we were in Sky… "Ignore that nation banner." I know they added it later, but does that make it any less "real." Whose to say Nations haven't started sending their own parties up there to explore, or that adventurers haven't stumbled across dynamis. The Original Hydra Corpse members stumbled across it as well.

Things just feel "CLOSED" in this regard giving newer members the feeling of they'll never see this stuff unless the group tells them they can.

Also, I've personally changed my character a few times trying to fit "the mold" of the group. It's caused me to not want to RP, or be able to RP my character. He doesn't move like he use to and it's more frustrating then anything. I've joked in the past about killing him off but honestly… Starting a new character with this group seems to be the only solution at this point.


OLD / NEW

I never suggested ousting old members or their opinions but we hear "They are returning and have plans and have had them for years." Well… We newer members do not / can not know all of that. They aren't active at this moment is what people are adding in the above. Maybe letting us know a small tib bit of this would help? This just adds to that CLOSED feeling because now we have to worry about, "Are we going to touch on what they are going to do?" So we can't really let our characters knowing. RP is not suppose to be completely written and scripted.

In addition to what's written above… My past shells never divided itself up as: This is our RP ONRY pearl. This is our SOCIAL ONRY pearl. Members full timed the RPLS pearl (except for EG or popping over to a friend's social,) and we social'd and RP'd at the same time. The only time socials were asked to die down is when something major was going on. This added to the community being tightly knit which made the RP more real because we knew each other.


Can't think of anymore and I have a lot more work to do today.

~Nod

Creative Freedom:

As in we don't need missions to develop like it seems we do here. (Drae also hit this point a bit.) I know it's not fully true but it feels that if we don't do missions, we don't go with "The Group" we have zero access to any areas. For instance, Dynamis and Sky.

I know you all took a group with you and it's been mentioned a few others have gone. But last time we were in Sky… "Ignore that nation banner." I know they added it later, but does that make it any less "real." Whose to say Nations haven't started sending their own parties up there to explore, or that adventurers haven't stumbled across dynamis. The Original Hydra Corpse members stumbled across it as well.

Things just feel “CLOSED” in this regard giving newer members the feeling of they'll never see this stuff unless the group tells them they can.

Also, I've personally changed my character a few times trying to fit “the mold” of the group. It's caused me to not want to RP, or be able to RP my character. He doesn't move like he use to and it's more frustrating then anything. I've joked in the past about killing him off but honestly… Starting a new character with this group seems to be the only solution at this point.Nodem

A couple things regarding this… I'll start with Dynamis first. As with any RP group someone joins it helps to know the history of how things came about, both the IC history and OOC history. Back when we first introduced Dynamis, there were a lot of people who were unsure of how it should be implemented into the RP. In the RP where we introduced Dynamis a character referred to it as a business where multiple linkshells were in competition for the areas. With the member base that we had at the time, there were a lot of people who wanted to focus more on the Dynamis story and make it more heroic than simply being a 'business.' I got a lot of pressure and retconned it to, for an unspecified amount of time, to be a single linkshell activity. Because that was what people at the time wanted.

The situation now? No one has ever really pushed the issue of whether or not more adventurers do Dynamis since it hasn't even been a huge plot point in the RP and so I haven't ever given it a lot of thought. Truth is, I don't actually care whether or not other adventurers go into Dynamis. I've never addressed it because no one made it a big RP concern for them. When I had said that we're currently the only group going into Dynamis it was because that was as far as we had gotten and no one had requested me to revisit it. As far as I'm concerned Dynamis is well known enough by adventurers that anyone can enter.

Tu'lia/Sky

I don't understand why you are saying that RPers have zero access to areas for not going with the group, especially with regards to Sky, since not more than two days ago I talked with you about how RPers have always been able to go to sky since we've done Zilart. Sae and Aedyn ran up their on their own (as in, without talking to anyone in the group about sky), Obtuse wrote a fanfic even which included her Tarutaru reporter character Pasquale sneaking up there along with a group of adventurers completely unrelated to "the Group" who had found their own crystal to open the gate. You asked me about this a day or two ago and I explained this to you and you even told me you had read the story with Pasquale and knew what I was referring to… hence… I'm very confused where 'zero access' to Sky comes into the picture.

With regards to the nation banner this again is something I really don't care about. It's like the most minor thing on my plate at the moment. I suggested ignoring it for the sake that Sky seems more exotic when its not known for being trudged around on by adventurers. It was intended to give the place some sense of special purpose as opposed to being just another conquest zone. But I mean, really, if people want to see the nation banner in sky I really don't care. Go for it, I dunno. Had you said during that RP "Well haven't adventurers been coming up here? Wouldn't the nations be aware of it?" I probably would've just said "Alright, sure." It's not something I really am hurting over…

I will say this though, there are a lot of things in RP that required a bit of suspended disbelief and seeing things for more or ignoring things that are "real" in the game. Other adventurers running around in the game are "real" but we often pretend they aren't around particularly when they stomp on through a touching scene. I okay parts of zones to be used in ways that are absolutely not what they are, for example, the Reliquary in the San d'Orian Cathedral being used as an in-character infirmary, Bostaunieux being used in place of an Aht Urhgan cell since there were no prisons to act out a jailbreak scene in Aht Urhgan, Nodem's hand used to be burned and charred looking despite the "real" character model being unable to remove his glove but we looked through it, your character has a boat that no one else can see or ride on (actually if I remember correctly you substituted the ferry boat as your ship), that can take you to continents that no other character can access, an entire pirate crew of characteres we can't see or directly interact with either, and some characters in the past have visited the Mithra homeland… and the list goes on and on. Please don't take this as a complaint. I think these things have all been excellent uses of the zones and the game lore for RP purposes. But all of these things are not "real" by the game standards. Hence again, looking back on all these things, I'm really confused about how ignoring the presence of a banner in Tu'lia was such a big issue in light of all the other things that are completely open for people to do and explore.

Looking back on all these posts I still don't know what you really are looking for in regards to creative freedom… your character is a very good example of just what people are able to go and do in this shell.

It comes down to the balance between story and game mechanics. Some things have to be done to make the game a game that just don’t make sense from a plot standpoint. One thing I dislike is how sometimes game mechanics get forced into story. For example Home Points talked about as Home Points IC in regards to Kaolla’s warp spells. I personally believe that it makes more sense from a story standpoint that Kaolla can freely warp to any location she wants to. This of course can’t be done in-game so it’s instead viewed as a spell that homes in on large crystals (Home Points.)

This is why I think we need OOC meetings, so that views on such things can be discussed and a balance that everyone can live with can be agreed to. I mean some things just can’t be done. I would love to have Kaolla zipping around on a broomstick, but I also believe that other members would find that even more ridiculous than I do lol.

One thing i would like to add in regards to rp creativity, my chararter Meckruco. for this shell i have removed a major thing that made him be the explorer warrior badass that ive had him in the past with an old RPLS. grated the idea was thought up on a booze binge before i deployed but thats besides the facts.

Meck went to lands unknown in game (time frame of when i was deployed) as a means to pull him away from everyone else while i was gone and not able to play much. well during that time he got his left arm literately blown off and got an auto mail arm in place. yes a slight crossover with Full Metal Alchemist. ive been racking my brain and Nodem has helped try to figure out how i can keep that arm while still be within the bounds of the rules of this shell.

what we have is a rough idea of a puppet like arm that serves the same thing as the auto mail idea i had from 2007. wish i saved the stories i wrote there. lost some stuff cause the old site got destroyed.

One thing i would like to add in regards to rp creativity, my chararter Meckruco. for this shell i have removed a major thing that made him be the explorer warrior badass that ive had him in the past with an old RPLS. grated the idea was thought up on a booze binge before i deployed but thats besides the facts.

Meck went to lands unknown in game (time frame of when i was deployed) as a means to pull him away from everyone else while i was gone and not able to play much. well during that time he got his left arm literately blown off and got an auto mail arm in place. yes a slight crossover with Full Metal Alchemist. ive been racking my brain and Nodem has helped try to figure out how i can keep that arm while still be within the bounds of the rules of this shell.

what we have is a rough idea of a puppet like arm that serves the same thing as the auto mail idea i had from 2007. wish i saved the stories i wrote there. lost some stuff cause the old site got destroyed.Meckruco

Don’t take this the wrong way… but you might want to just invent a whole new back story. I’ve been in a few other RP LSes before this one. And each time I joined a new LS I made a new back story. Partially this was to ensure my char fit in with the new group, and partially this was to enjoy the creation of a whole new character without the hassle of creating a new character in game and leveling it up. I had to keep her a mithra with the same name and basic looks but I’ve done a wide variety of attitudes from the snaky thief to the eternally lost ranger to my current version the half insane mage.

Just a suggestion, however it’s probably best to create another thread to continue this discussion, or open up a talk in game about it. I believe this thread if for a more general view on what the LS should be. It does give me an idea though, maybe we should create another thread to simply discuss characters. A thread where people can discuss their own character and even the characters of others. I think some OOC discussion about who we want our characters to be and how other players see them could help facilitate more and better IC interactions between said characters.

P.S.

I have not RPed with you or your character so I’m not entirely certain how you mean the word badass. Please do not take this as an attack. But, the word badass is a really big turnoff for me personally. There is a fine line between badass and jerkass and I often have trouble seeing the difference. I’m not fond of what I (probably in error) perceive as “show-offs” or the whole trying to be cool attitude. This has led to some tension between my character and Nodem’s character in game due to my character always trying to peg his char down a notch when he tries to act cool.

I do hope Nodem understands that the tension is entirely IC and is meant to be humorous not a reflection on my personal feelings OOC about the player behind Nodem.

This again brings up how I feel some more OOC discussion is really needed between LS members in order to diminish the aforementioned “social division amongst members”

i hear what you are saying Kaolla, but the charater is based off of my own personality. as far as what i mean by badass is go in, kick butt, complete the task then go have a brew. life is a battlefeild. the weapons are the only thing that changes. be it great big axe or tactful words.

Even if you don't know IC, it's already been proven that some people are going to react differently to minion #8 if you know they're working for me OOC, or if they have hired me to do something.Kirious

I have a sense that this is referring to Avina becoming suspicious of Drae. Normally I work really hard to make sure that I'm not seeing into things that I shouldn't (Avina isn't the quickest person mentally speaking IC), but there was a lot of factors that went into making Avina become a little suspicious of Drae.

1. Prior to Avina running into Drae, Kirious had just explained to Avina that he has people everyone who are following her around and tracking her movements. In other words, a villain gives away to the hero that they are tracking them and explains how they are tracking them (people's eyes). This hero is likely going to be put on edge and with the villain's secret given to them, they are going to be looking over their shoulder more behind them, so to speak.
2. When Avina met Drae at the airship Avina was somewhat suspicious of her due to her wearing Rogue gear (I RPed her thinking this and Avina also openly commented to Drae about her Thief Artifact armor). Avina is a Thief and has found those same garments in the past, and other characters in the RP, before, have been able to identify Avina as a Thief based on the gear she wears. Avina was not drawing a connection to Kirious at this point, and she even figured that like her, this Thief could be nice and only a Thief of beastmen.
3. After meeting Drae, Avina departs the Airship and Kirious is waiting for her right outside the airship doors. It was a cool scene, however it became clear to Avina that she really was being tracked since he had timed it so perfectly. I had her play dumb and not immediately assume it had to be Drae who had helped Kirious along, as she was too shocked at the time to think about how it had happened.
4. Drae was there when Avina met with Kirious in the tavern. This is where the link between the two of them became really hard to ignore. Avina still doesn't know for sure if Drae is working for Kirious but Avina has her eyes on Drae. There was a lot of information given to Avina to lead her to suspect Drae…. had Kirious not told Avina #1 Avina probably would have drawn no conclusions.

In general though I think more characters need to be vulnerable to the things that Kirious is saying, and hopefully this won't be as much of an issue in the future since all his rumors and spreading fears is going to end up being true when Chains of Promathia starts tomorrow. Avina is actually probably going to put a lot of trust in him most likely (too much) once Kirious proves to be correct.

Not all walk-up RP has to end in an Epic Adventure; I'd settle for a quick IC conversation about the weather if I bumped into someone at the auction house. The lack of spontaneous RP is something I am missing from my days on Asura and in (yikes!) World of Warcraft. Scheduling events has it's place and purpose; I wouldn't suggest getting rid of it because it pretty much guarantees that on a specific day, there -will- be people around. However, as a group we shouldn't rely solely on scheduled days.

Suggestion: ChildrenOfAltana used the fountain in N.Sandy and TheGauntlet used the Steaming Sheep in P.Bastok as their “regular hang-outs”. Perhaps we should “assign” a location where it would be natural, IC'ly, for people to go and just hang out and meet with and/or wait for others. Also, a listing of who's open for walk-up RP, including any restrictions (i.e. “I don't RP while I'm on X-job or Y-day”).Drae

My previous RPLS' were equipped full time and people would hop in and out of RP's. Even if it was people bitching over the shell about a goblin RP was doing to them.Nodem

I'm answering these concerns together since they are somewhat related.

I have always encouraged people to use the shell off regularly scheduled RP times for random RPing and exploration. Some have used this opportunity more than others. I know that if anyone has ever asked to use the shell outside of the regularly scheduled times my answer has been nothing except "Absolutely." Sae and Aedyn used to do a lot of duoing in the pearl.

I've noticed over the past couple of months a lot of the duoing/trioing/random RP that certain RPers tend to do has been taking place in a separate linkshell outside of TalesOfVanadiel. This is not referring to The Rumored Saga… in this pearl they are RPing as their ToV characters. This makes walk-up RP much more difficult… if you are taking your ToV characters and RPing them in a different shell that essentially blocks all others from being able to interact with them. And maybe that's what those RPers want to do. However it is extremely frustrating for me to read posts from them, either on these forums or for example, catching the tail end of the pre-RP meeting this past today, where I see these same RPers saying they all want more random RP when they usually do their own random RP off shell.

I want to say though, I really like Drae's idea about having a specified place for people to hang out when IC. Since we will be all going to Chains of Promathia zones soon, which people don't usually frequent, the whole zone of Tavnazian Safehold could be an RP "walk-up" zone. Since we'll be trapped there IC for a bit, it may be a good spot to use to fulfill this idea. We'll look into this more when we get there.

I also worry about the ENDING of ToV. After all the missions are done. This is saying SE doesn't nuke FFXI before we can complete it, and/or we lose people due to RL or are bored with FFXI all together. There will be nothing left for this shell. Soon as the last mission is done, maybe a few wraps up and then… Nothing. A RP shouldn't end because the missions were the only thing keeping the group together. Missions shouldn't be the factor that keeps a group together to begin with.Nodem

With regards to the ending of Tales of Vana'diel, which I don't see happening for years, I have a couple of things to say about that.

1. There will be a time that comes, not necessarily when we complete all the missions and whatnot, when I am going to step down and cut Avina's story off. For myself, I believe that a good ending is a part of a good story. This, by no means, would be the end of ToV (see #2). I at the very least want to get her through all the missions and Abyssea story and whatever else SE may throw in there, but I could very easily take her beyond that to do… see below.
2. If we hit the end of the mission line ToV would not be without stuff to do. There would be a significant revamp of the rules as all mission lines and zones would be completed and custom RP content would be required in order for the RP to continue. I would likely assign a new GM around this point primarily as a scenario builder who could design good story-building activities and arcs through which the RP could continue through.

Scenarios

No one has commented on this or asked for anything like this in this topic yet but I would like to just bring this up and gauge what people think about this.

I'm currently working on some scenario based activities at the moment. I've been putting a lot of thought into how to improve this RP and part of that has been to do more missions on mission days and have more RPs devoted to socials/character building. In addition to that though, I'm looking at implementing some new "Scenarios" into the RP. I'll make this into

A scenario (in the context of this RP group), in my mind, is something separate from the mission storyline, although possibly related, that is a RP-unique story that happens to the characters but doesn't have any pre-specified major players. In this sense the scenario itself isn't a story and has no predetermined 'ending,' rather something *happens to* the RP group and the RP group has to deal with the consequences of it.

An example would be a disease that would begin to afflict the members of the RP. At some point, a character would get a message from me indicating that they have become sick, with a list of all the symptoms they have. The RP group would have to work to figure out the cure to the disease, the method of transmission, and so on and so forth. In order to make this a true 'roleplaying' experience, only I would know the workings of the disease. I would inject clues into the RP if necessary to help people discover the cause. RPers would have to RP having the symptoms that I describe as the very symptoms I assign to people may be different depending on the circumstances. All in all, I would hope to see RPs springing up more often in an attempt to solve the mystery. Only I would know how it has to be solved and I absolutely would not spoil it for anyone.

OOC Meetings

Before I sign off this for now, I want to just say that I think that OOC meetings like Kaolla is suggesting would be a great idea. I do worry though because in the past when I've done similar things only one or two people tend to actually discuss while the rest remain quiet or vent at me in /tell about things that are being said in the shell. I'm willing to give it another shot, but really, people need to be willing to speak up.

Phew…where do I start? I guess for starters, I'm glad that this thread was started. I think it's revealed a lot of what is probably (hopefully) misunderstandings, but also gets a lot of peoples' opinions out in the open.

The other thing I'm going to say now before saying any of my opinions is a disclaimer: If I make a reference to anything that you have said or done in the past, It is NOT a personal affront or attack. The purpose of my post here is not to offend anyone, but simply to state things as I have seen them, and to make my opinion known. I like everyone in the shell, and trust me, if I had a problem with you, I'd talk to you about it, not reveal it in a thread like this. I thank you now for keeping that in mind.

I have very little to say that hasn't been said before, but I'd like to stress certain themes that I've noticed. I will also do my best to offer solutions to problems that I've seen.

Social (IC/OOC) Interaction

I think there is a lot of social division amongst members…People come together to RP but seem distanced or even at odds afterwardsKorghan

This is a major issue, and one that I think just about any person could and has probably noticed. I can't tell you the number of times that I've seen an IC interaction taken the wrong way, putting the RPers involved at odds OOC. This also applies to IC interactions that didn't take place. People seem so ready to just jump down each others' throats and to instantly believe the worst of each other, without even talking to each other about it.

Suggested Solution: This is going to sound so pathetically optimistic, but just bear with me.

1. Start over OOC. Wipe all of your preconceived notions of each other, and let's try to just reintroduce ourselves. I can personally attest to when I first joined, I was warned not only about certain people IC, but certain people OOC. This made a *serious* impact on how I saw other RPers (IC and OOC), when all I really wanted to do was take the time to form my own opinions.

1. a. (How to approach this) Keep in mind that *everyone* has a different way of looking at things. Person A might take a statement that you thought was perfectly innocent, and take offense to it. Keep and open mind, and don't immediately jump to conclusions. The same might happen vice-versa. Person B might say something that you interpret as hurtful. Again, don't immediately jump to the conclusion that they're trying to attack or hurt you. Talk to them. However, please don't call out someone in a party or a linkshell. If you feel the need to have someone there to act as a mediator, I'm personally willing, and I'm sure that others would be as well.

1. b. If people are comfortable enough to do so, let's make a thread about ourselves as the RPers. Not the characters, but the RPers behind the characters. If we can begin to understand where each person is coming from OOC, we can at least attempt to understand where they're coming from and most importantly WHY someone may react as they do. Again, this is just a suggestion, and only to be used if people feel comfortable enough doing so.

1. c. Just be aware of it. The first step to overcoming a problem is to adknowledge that the problem exists. Awareness is key.

Aht Urghan/Creative Limitations

Avi has stated that Aht Urghan is open. However, as I've interpreted it by what others have said, they (and I) mean, "Let me go to Aht Urghan to just hang around the city IC, do a quick besieged and possibly run into another RPer there, while avoiding missions"

And hang on a second, I feel the need to say this…*clears throat*. Please see my disclaimer at the top (AKA, if I point something out, it's to work with a specific example, not to attack or offend someone).

My personal opinion is that this would not be terribly difficult to do, however, only if you take timing into account.

Suggested Solutions:

1. Avoid Naja and becoming a mercenary. If you're not familiar with ToAU, she's the one who starts you both as a mercenary, and the ToAU plotline.

2. Don't mention the Astral Candescence. If I recall properly (and it's very possible that I don't), civilians in WG don't know exactly why the beastment keep attacking as the Astral Candy is tightly regulated information. Again, I may be wrong about this, so please feel free to correct me.

3. Timing is key. Especially now that we're about to start CoP, we certainly can't do something like "Oh no! We're trapped in Tavnazia!…Oh well! Who want's a drink in AU?" or "Oh crap! The world's gonna be ending soon if we don't stop it! … Oh, hey! Who's up for a besieged?" I don't think anyone would actually do this, but this is something to keep in mind.

These are suggestions meant only for if we do consider/implement opening ToAU to random RPs.

OOC Knowledge

And even if you pretend not to know I'm there, some people will act differently once they know I am. They'll get more defensive, and paranoid. An example of this being the hostility the character was met with at introduction, people knew OOC I was a badguy, but no one knew who I was IC. When your character greets one new person on the street with a hello, but is instantly suspicious of another, it's obvious you're not playing fair.Kirious

^This.^ The entire RP that Kirious was introduced, I felt like one of the only people who didn't immediately know IC, by miraculously being graced with knowledge by Altana, that Kirious is/was a "bad guy".

I can feel the hate /tells coming already, so I'm going to point to my disclaimer yet again.

I'll be the first to admit that I've been guilty of doing stuff like this too. However, I'm also going to say, be careful of foreshadowing too often. If the RP before every large fight, you find your character wanting to say something along the lines of "I have a bad feeling…" or "This'll be over soon", you're letting your OOC knowledge influence you too much.

The way I think about it is like this: "If you let OOC knowledge influence you, you're not IC." Now, there are exceptions to this, like every other rule.

If your character is built in a specific manner, like a bookworm or a knowledge herder, knowing a bit about the existance of say, Tu'Lia or Tavnazia wouldn't be a bad thing in moderation. However, being able to say "This country's strife and misery will end soon" or "Something's going to happen soon" will convince me that you can see the future. In which case, I will have to drag you over to my house to tell me my future, because I would *love* to know what the heck I'm gonna do after I graduate college. And possibly how much money I'm gonna make. Or if I'll be successful…Anyways, you get the idea.

Suggested Solutions:

1. Take a step back when you're RPing. If your character is depressed for some reason that you can't identify, it probably means that you're depressed as well. I've had this happen to me too many times to count.

2. Take a careful look at the missions and what you *should* know IC. It's very easy (not to mention fun at times!) to be the one to say "I have a bad feeling that something's going to happen soon…". Restrain this urge. Does your character really have the ability to see the future? The last time I checked, we didn't have a character like that. If you are part-Seer, do try to limit it so that others have the occasional chance to be part-Seer too, ok? :)

OOC Meetings:

…at the end of this thread and after the LS has a few OOC meeting in game that each member be allowed to submit revised versions of the rules to this thread. These revised rules can them be discussed and melded together into an amalgam document that will serve as a new set of rules for the LS.Kaolla

YES. THANK YOU. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. (If you can't tell, after the 4th thank you, I had to copy/paste. My fingers are getting tired of typing…)

Once again, since you can't actually see me, I'm pointing to my disclaimer. And also feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with any of the following information.

ToV was started 2 years ago. The rules for the shell were decided then. Now, as I've heard, they've been revisited from time to time, however, not since I've joined. Since I've joined in January, we've had 6 new RPers that have stuck around. Each person brings their own past experiences and their own viewpoint to the table. So yes, maybe it's time that we formally took into account the newer RPers' ideas for the rules as well?

Suggested Solutions:

1. OOC Meetings where we keep into account that everyone is entitled to their opinions. This means following my suggestions for OOC/IC interaction (see above).

2. Kaolla had some great ideas, I suggest reading her post over and using that.

Creative Limitations (Revisited):

I realized that I forgot some stuff to mention while I was going through the posts. This is slightly different than my section above, so I'll just give this it's own section.

A couple people mentioned the RP feeling a bit "Closed off" for creativity. Meck mentioned a mechanical arm. Now, I don't know if that's been resolved or even discussed (or if there's even anything to discuss in either direction of using this idea), but here's some things that I've thought of, and have a few questions for.

Gray area. Stuff that's not strictly canon, but doesn't go against canon either. I know that saying "Ask me about it before using it" does give a slight closed feeling, but I also know that if clear limitations aren't set, we'll end up having things that are pretty iffy to allow (Fox Demon from outer space anyone?).

Here are some things that I've thought of that are gray area: Prosthetics, potions for different purposes (change hair color temporarily perhaps?), or maybe types of surgeries or other medical related equipment/things.

Not all of these things would make a major impact on a character or the group, but should an idea be discounted because of that (I'm not saying that any ideas have been that I know of, but I'm making a point)?

Suggested Solutions:
1. Have a group meeting about what types of things are definitely "OK" and definitely "Not OK".

2. If you have an idea that's the new gray area, bring it up in LS to talk about.

I'm currently wearing a construction helmet. It's yellow and has the words "Disclaimer" on the front of it in large black lettering.

Out of LS RPing:

I'm going to address this as I freely admit that I do a certain amount of this. There are times that I don't want others to read what I'm RPing. Sometimes, I feel very shy about what I write. Other times, I feel that it may be pushing the canon envelope, and if it doesn't impact anyone else, I won't ask about doing the idea, and I'll simply RP it in another shell. I can hear the "But why Sae? Why not just use ToV for it?"

1. If it pushes the canon envelope, I get shy. 2. If it pushes the canon envelope, and if other people come into ToV and see what I'm doing, I'm certain that Avi will get spammed with angry /tells of "Omg, Sae did this! Why can't I do X/Y/Z?!" 3. For the same reason that Kirious mentioned that he needs to RP in party/other LSes.

Note: If you see me in TR, I'm probably bored. If I'm bored, I like to RP! If I'm in another shell, I'm mostly likely doing something else like dyna. Just send me a /tell!

Scenario-RPing:

I'm all for this! I've always seen Avi as doing a good job of keeping OOC knowledge from being IC.

I keep wanting to suggest a check-and-balance system, just in case though. Still not sure how'd that'd work. Let me think on it a bit more first.

Misconceptions:

This is my last thing I wanted to add for now. A lot of things that people have issues with seem to be caused by confusion about the original rules, or other things that may not be written, but are expected to be followed. One such thing would be who exactly the LS leaders are. For example, until about 3 days ago when Avi told me otherwise, I always assumed that Kj was a leader.

Suggested Solution:

1. This might be a little tough to work, but during one of our OOC LS meetings, we should just question each other on the written and unwritten rules of the LS. A lot of times, quizzing someone is not only the best way to make someone else realize that they may not know as much as they thought, but it helps you learn too.

Final words: Everything that I have typed, if it seems to have been directed at you, was not with the intent of causing hurt, offense or attacking you. If I mentioned specific examples of "he said, she said", it was to work with an example.

There's my 2 gil. I hope you guys will consider it :)

EDIT: Edited format, added "Misconceptions" section

I’m currently slowly working on some ideas for a revised rules that should help give some structure and some of the checks and balances that Sae mentioned. One idea is giving Avi a plot veto, basically the power to say that a plot idea cannot be canon IC. However any member who has an idea vetoed as non-canon could then appeal to the LS by describing the plot on the forum. Then if say ¾ of active members post to endorse the plot it will then be allowed.

I also advise forming a lore council. A group of players (with at least one year active RPing on the shell) who will basically be volunteered as members who can be contacted OOC in tells in order to discuss potential RP plots. The lore council would be an advisory group only with no power to approve or disapprove actual plots. A member of the lore council could however advise that a plot idea be posted on the webpage in order for the LS as a whole to vote on. Majority vote would allow or disallow the the idea barring Avina’s veto power.

Actually Avina would be given 3 options. Option 1: to simply vote yes or no but to not invoke any shell holder powers. This would be for when Avi feels one way or the other but doesn’t feel strongly about the opposite result possibly occurring. Option 2: To veto the option which means that the plot is not used unless ¾ of the members over-rule the veto. Option 3: To give the idea a “Shell Holder Pass” basically the opposite of the veto. This means that Avi like the idea enough that he wants it implemented immediately without a vote. This like a veto however could be overturned if ¾ of active members decide they really don’t want a certain plot to be used.

Hopefully the voting system will be used rarely simply on more radical or surprising ideas and that the majority of issues can be resolved by OOC discussion in which an idea can be molded and compromised until accepted within the LS canon by general consent.

This is just one of many ideas I have and I’m certain that even if my ideas would be accepted they’ll need to me worked around a bit and polished.


On another note this is about Kirious’ issue. I think part of the problem with your character is that you didn’t discuss your ideas with enough people OOC before implementing them. The reason so many people are suspicious of your character is because he acts suspicious IC. The way you describe the way he grins instant IC flag to others to not trust your character. Also during your 1st RP your cover story was kinda weak. Don’t take this the wrong way. I can only speak for myself, and maybe I took OOC info to far but it was a mistake to say you were an official govt. agent from Windurst.

It is clear in cannon and from NPCs that only Tarus and Mithra hold such offices in Windurst. While not as arrogant as a Sandy Elvaan, Windurst tarus have a napoleon complex. Windurst is run by a magic based meritocracy. Where political position is determined solely by magical power. Magic is so sanctified in Windurst that its structure is very similar to a theocracy. The Star Sybil is the head priestess / avatar of power. The ministries are arranged almost like a seminary where the dogma of magic is passed down to the citizenry. Tarus though have an innate arrogance being the 1st race to discover magic and they believe it their domain. In other words no non taru would be given a government position.

The sole exception to this is the Sybil Guards. This 100% mithra group is the buffer between the taru based govt. and the mithran mercenaries which make up half the military. The other half is made up by the war warlocks. Mithra by nature (this can be concluded by talking to many NPCs) are xenophobic traditionalists. Those of their own kind who do not adhere to their own strict guidelines and hunted down and killed (sin hunters). Mithra are also sexist. They view males as silly. It is clear from talk in Kazham that mithra feel that males of other races inferior to their own males, and their own males are locked up for their own protection. The sole exception might and I stress might be the galka because while male in appearance they are technically genderless as they reproduce through reincarnation.

The above views are of course not universal among NPCs but it’s prevalent enough among the leadership that your cover story simply fell apart. It would have been a simple thing to fix too. You could have simply said that Kirious was an adventurer hired by one of the existing Windurst ministries. They do outsource as the in game missions prove. That cover would have been almost instantly believed. However by making up a new agency that is not represented in the game and is therefore can not realistically be expected to be believed to exist IC by any PC that has spent time in Windurst. I think I’ve made my point… While OOC info might have cause players to subconsciously look harder for IC reasons to not trust your character there are ample IC reasons for our characters to not trust your character.

This is why I think we need a thread to discuss characters, how we want them to be seen and how their actions are interpreted by other players.

We can never realistically expect another player to see our character the same way we do. Also some things stand out and other things fall through the cracks. For example Kaolla is shorter than average, and covered in tattoos. Of course her tattoos are almost always covered and therefore forgotten about. But, it was intended that the tattoos being the ones from the weskit set made it so that it is possible that simply touching Kaolla could result in a player being cursed. This was acted out once but then never really mentioned again. I think it’s been kinda decided that as long as I’m not wearing the weskit IC that Kaolla’s tattoos are covered and therefore players are shielded from their effect. Still I doubt anyone consciously thinks about Kaolla’s tattoos when they talk to her IC.

I could keep going but I really think we need to make a new thread to discuss character while this thread focuses more on the general aspects of how players interact IC and OOC on the LS. And with issues like LS canon etc.