Hey all,

You may have seen my previous post addressing a side-RP tie-in between ToV and Adoulin. This post will address Adoulin in a broader sense, regarding the main roleplay.

There's been a lot of questions floating around about what will come from Adoulin and what we should be able to do with Adoulin, etc, if anything. So I set up this poll to help come to an understanding about what the group expects and what they would like to see from how the expansion will impact Tales of Vana'diel.

Some of the bigger issues to talk on here involve how to handle the jobs from Adoulin, Adoulin as a visitable/known location (would people know a lot about it? etc), and overall missions and lore aspects of Adoulin.

I'll weigh in with my personal opinion on the topic although this is not something that I'm planning on drawing a hard line on if my opinion differs from what most people want. But here are my thoughts: were it just me I'd probably take a more conservative approach to the whole thing and just keep Adoulin separate. However, I personally don't think that would be the best decision for the linkshell overall.

Since we currently have a bit of a lull in membership, I'm hoping to snag some new members, who may be more interested in roleplaying Adoulin material. Due to this, I think we need to be realistic and not put into place as strict of rules as we have had in the past with previous expansions which caused a lot of struggle. This is partly why I think a side tie-in to Adoulin is a good idea; people can get their Adoulin RPness, and it doesn't really change much of how things happen for the main cast.

In the end, my stance would be, for the main cast: we let people roleplay jobs from Adoulin (creating different stories for rune fencer/geomancer), but knowledge of Adoulin and especially travel to Adoulin is off limits or not allowed. For the side-RP tie-in, obviously people would be able to do things and have fun roleplaying in Adoulin, but the missions would be not allowed as part of the RP (unless we decide the side-RP to be entirely non-canon with what the main cast does).

I'm putting together a poll here, to gauge people's opinions on different matters. It's not a decisive poll, due to the various options we have, but I'm hoping that we'll gain a better picture from this what people are wanting, so we can come to a reasonable compromise.

Note: Since people may change their minds as part of this discussion, votes are not final.

Voted for option 2, but there was some points about travel and knowledge that I think should be addressed. Travel between the mainlands and the SoA areas has, cannonly, been possible for a while (see: Harvest Festival exorcists), so to completely ignore it is a potential for plotholes and drama.

Travel, I'd propose that its handled with the idea that until the group reaches SoA content, you have to pay an insane amount of money to get across the ocean. And when I say insane, I mean several million in non-AH-obtained amounts that doesn't just conveniently 'appear' in a person's pockets out of the blue (meaning, no "Oh, I've been rich" or "Its my inheritance", etc.). IC working to obtain this amount should be done.
– Nation missions have some of the highest payouts as you rank up, yet you only net 319,000 total per city for a total of less than a million by completing all three. Also, if someone is already rank 10 in all three nations, they cannot claim to use this method; similarly, if someone is only rank 5 in their first nation prior to deciding to go, they cannot count the previous rank's payouts towards their total.
– Each trip SHOULD continue with this cost amount. No "Oh, I paid once and now I can come and go as I please", you have to cough up several mil each time.
– No personal ships (sorry, COR's and pirate-type characters).
– If someone is DESPERATE to be directly from SoA areas, my thought is that they should be prepared to arrive in the Middle Lands poor and without the 'conveniences' that we regular Middle Landers take for granted: chocobo licence that's recognized in the Middle Lands, gate crystals for teleports, outposts, rank in any nation, sky/sea/Tav access, pass to ToAU areas, Tenshodo membership (unless there's already a Tenshodo tie-in to SoA), etc.

Knowledge, I'd propose giving the option to handle it three ways:
– First hand knowledge obtained by traveling there (see above proposal), which would be extremely rare.
– Research/studies (must be backed up by official SE lore sources such as "Life in Vana'diel" articles and perhaps unaltered outdoor maps, no transcripts from missions/quests), so limited and possibly even edited by the various Churches for content.
– Dated, anecdotal stories passed through family.

Which brings me to the jobs…
Knowing and understanding that there could eventually be new people who want to play Geomancer or Rune Fencer, and already be medium to max level, I propose that knowledge and training is handled in the idea that it was a family legacy. These individuals are second/third generation (unless the character is already… maybe forty or more years old, then perhaps first-generation or "born over there, immigrated as a baby" can be considered) in families that immigrated from SoA areas to the Middle Lands at some point in the past. AF sets, bells, and whatever Rune Fencers used would be family heirlooms.
This would also let people work in a SoA-based background, through family history, while still keeping them grounded in the Middle Lands.
– The exception to this would be someone who manages to come up with the money to travel over there, and comes back as a low-level Geomancer or Rune Fencer (level twenty or less)… however I propose that anyone who takes this route would also be asked to 'hold back' on how much they ICly learn/develop once they come back (see travel restriction).

So, that only leaves one last proposal: how to deal with the cries of "why are there these limits?" from newcomers and already-existing cast's IC questions of "… Why is all this SoA stuff coming out of the woodwork now?"

My thoughts (with what little I've read/heard about SoA history) is that, within our group's lore, the Middle Lands may have been at-odds with the religious/theological practices of SoA areas. They (so far) sound to be shamanistic in many of their beliefs, and some of their practices are self-destructive (see Rune Fencer's training lore). The San d'Orian and Tavnazian churches (cannonly the two biggest Middle Land religious centers in the Middle Lands) may have condemned these practices, putting pressure on nation leaders to limit contact with "heathen peoples" that didn't believe in Altana or Paradise. Immigrants from SoA areas would have wanted to keep their family legacies secret, else face persecution.
– With the opening of routes to Aht Urghan, which was closed for political/economic reasons, people are being exposed to a different religious viewpoint (Walaharian philosophy) and that would make people more accepting of something so different. With people's ability to tolerate something so different increasing, immigrant families wouldn't be so fearful of persecution, therefore practices that they once hid under other jobs (Rune Fencers holding back and pretending to be Red Mages, Geomancers as… whatever…) would slowly be coming out into the open.


–-

So, yeah, those are my thoughts. Feel free to pick apart or take/use whatever.

I agree with Draenen's opinions on traveling.

My main concern is on the jobs. I wouldn't agree to add their existence in the main plot prior SoA. Not only it would spoil the surprise of said job's existence to the others (much like what happened to Blue Mage, and we know people will do the same thing they did with BLUs and swarm us with rune fencers and geomancers, given the possibility), but it's also a borderline over-powering to allow just the willing individuals to unlock jobs that are, by lore, not taught/practiced in the present era and area.

DNC and SCH existed in the past and exist in the present as NPCs, so those were an exception. And the AU jobs were allowed with the leader's decision to let people access Aht Urhgan prior RPing that stage of the missions plot.

My suggestion is, that if someone really wants to RP Adoulin jobs, that should be kept within the Seekers of Adoulin - Exclusive Scenario idea you put in the other thread, assuming that such an idea takes place.

I see no big issue with random people showing up in the Midlands/AU with the new jobs. Cultures migrate all the time. MAYBE limited knowledge… like, very limited. Lore and not much else. I disagree with the main cast being able to travel to Adoulin, though. There is so much going on already, with the current pace of things… lets not toss too much into the pot…

To clarify, I'm none too keen about the possible influx of "OMG IMA GEOMANCER/RUNE FENCER" that we might have either. For similar reasons that Kj has, plus suddenly getting too deep into another expansion's lore could derail the group from its progression. However there's always the possibility that there's going to be a newcomer who will have a "I get my job or I'm out" mindset. That is more for where the "family legacy" idea kicks in.

This grounds a person's direct backstory/history in the Middle Lands: all they know IS life in the Middle Lands, and the occasional story from Grandpa about "the old country". That was the major thing I was thinking when I did my original post. Further thought and talking with Kat, I would add/edit to the idea:

Going with my proposal that the lack of contact is over religious/theological differences, a few generations of barely/covertly practicing techniques would dull them. Doesn't matter if Grandpa was an elite Rune Fencer, by the time he gets around to training you he's going to be lacking strength and some things would be a little fuzzy or lost to him. A little further reading into Geomancer hints that some of their abilities might require specific locations to learn/master: if you can't get to that location, you either won't have the ability or can only "mickey mouse" something similar. Also regarding the religious/theological differences, I'd also suggest that while there is some tolerance that allows them to not TOTALLY hide, its still a better idea that they not go parading down the streets of Jeuno, waving a banner and screaming it to the skies.

So, I'd then I'd propose that if someone is going to be a die-hard Geomancer or Rune Fencer, then they HAVE to make a few sacrifices: limit their job abilities ICly and keep quiet about what they are, or main whatever pre-SoA job is closest and just sub the SoA job… again keeping quiet. Other idea would be to do something similar to what Kiri did with BLU until we got closer to ToAU – no idea what they are, they're just a fighter/caster that can do some weird things.

RPing these limitations, I'd have to see how the jobs actually work before I can really suggest an idea. What comes to mind for Geomancer would be that they found a similar location in the current available areas, but no-where near as good as a SoA location, where they'd learn or whatever they do. Rune Fencer, knowledge of runes is passed down but with each generation some of the knowledge is lost.

Again, these ideas are more for the possibility that we get a newcomer who won't budge on the job issue. Our current cast, I think we're all reasonable enough to not pull crap like that. The 'went over there and learned' scenario, I doubt we'd ever really need it, but I included it just in case: the travel limitations, applied to that scenario, makes it fairly unreasonable for someone to really take the jobs seriously. Also, I would suggest that IF someone comes along and only wants to be a SoA job, that a detailed backstory/history is required and that in the end it's put up to a vote: glaring lore breaking, spoilers, disregard for whatever expectations we have as a group, and what-not being terms for rejection.

Despite the fact that I haven't RPed in a while, I'll throw my two gil in - feel free to take it or leave it as you will.

Remember, the more constricting you are with this, the more people that will either not join, or may leave. People are going to be excited over the new jobs, and they'll want to use them. The more you punish them for wanting to be on/RP these new jobs (By requiring specific and detailed backstories, limiting what they can and can't say, etc etc), the less they'll want to be here, and will seek out other avenues.

You may also want to discuss *when* you're going to do the Adoulin expansion. Depending on what the missions look like, between ToAU and WotG may not be a bad idea. Opening up restricting areas and jobs is definitely a good thing to do as soon as possible. But that can be the subject of another thread, back on topic.

My suggestions:

Travel to/from Adoulin - Somewhat restricted. I like Drae's suggestion with if someone comes from Adoulin, they would have next to nothing of what would be needed in the Midlands. Traveling to Adoulin, I wouldn't be opposed, but keep out the mission line, until the time comes that we would RP it.

Missions- Keep it out. I have no problems with knowing about Adoulin itself (The city, the 'guilds', etc etc), but try not to step into mission line, unless most of the citizens of Adoulin would know about it. That would be the only thing that I'd be strict about.

However, I don't agree with all of this "Make someone nerf their character because we don't want to know about it". Or however you want to phrase it.

I'd then I'd propose that if someone is going to be a die-hard Geomancer or Rune Fencer, then they HAVE to make a few sacrifices: limit their job abilities ICly and keep quiet about what they are, or main whatever pre-SoA job is closest and just sub the SoA jobDraenen Wen

Yeah, that. Why should they have to? So long as they don't touch on the mission line, there should be absolutely no problems with having the job. I could tell you guys about my hometown and how great and different it is until I'm blue in the face, but it wouldn't force you to go visit there, especially if there's no easy way there, and you're already involved in other problems, like ToAU.

I also want to point this out… We don't know what the missions are yet, nor what lore is revealed during them. A lot of this discussion may end up being a moot point once we do find out. Wait until we know more about the missions - then make your decisions.

So in closing, I leave you with this. Set up guidelines that aren't too strict. And try to make them guidelines, not strict rules that people have to follow in order to RP. If someone has a great idea that can allow them to play one of the new jobs, and still avoid touching on the missions and forcing the crew there, why not? Don't be a crotchety "NO, cause that's how we decided it to be blah blah ago, and that's how it'll be! Period!" group. Remember, fresh blood can breathe new life into an old RP and group, so if they challenge your preexisting ideas, don't turn them away. Go with it, and work with them, and you might be pleasantly surprised.

However, I don't agree with all of this "Make someone nerf their character because we don't want to know about it". Or however you want to phrase it.

I'd then I'd propose that if someone is going to be a die-hard Geomancer or Rune Fencer, then they HAVE to make a few sacrifices: limit their job abilities ICly and keep quiet about what they are, or main whatever pre-SoA job is closest and just sub the SoA jobDraenen Wen

Yeah, that. Why should they have to? So long as they don't touch on the mission line, there should be absolutely no problems with having the job. I could tell you guys about my hometown and how great and different it is until I'm blue in the face, but it wouldn't force you to go visit there, especially if there's no easy way there, and you're already involved in other problems, like ToAU.

I also want to point this out… We don't know what the missions are yet, nor what lore is revealed during them. A lot of this discussion may end up being a moot point once we do find out. Wait until we know more about the missions - then make your decisions.

So in closing, I leave you with this. Set up guidelines that aren't too strict. And try to make them guidelines, not strict rules that people have to follow in order to RP. If someone has a great idea that can allow them to play one of the new jobs, and still avoid touching on the missions and forcing the crew there, why not? Don't be a crotchety "NO, cause that's how we decided it to be blah blah ago, and that's how it'll be! Period!" group. Remember, fresh blood can breathe new life into an old RP and group, so if they challenge your preexisting ideas, don't turn them away. Go with it, and work with them, and you might be pleasantly surprised.Saerun

Normally, I'm not for such a sweeping restriction either. But there is a possible paradox to consider if we have travel restrictions: if we restrict travel (either entirely or by creating lore to make it very hard to get there, both options seeming to have some strength within the group already), then a bunch of native Midlanders suddenly popping up and saying "OHHAI I'M A GEOMANCER/RUNE FENCER WITH FULL ABILITIES AND AF FROM OVERSEAS!" makes little IC sense. The only way to resolve this would be to stipulate that everyone who wants to have an SoA job HAS to be from SoA areas, and then we have an influx of people stranded in the Middle Lands, poor and homeless.

I guess in all, I'm looking at things more in the Short Term with what lore is currently available, while considering the possible travel restrictions we'll have as a group. End of ToAU/beginning of WotG, we could consider revising and making things more flexible since time has passed. Mid/late-Abyssea, we could throw it all to the wind because by then we'd already be committed to a cause and need to finish it. At this point, though, with what is available for information, there is lots of places where things can sort of 'go wrong' and we get sidetracked or divided. That may, indeed, change when we have more lore available.

Though I will admit that asking people to limit/nerf their abilities, in hindsight, might be a bit much/invasive… My brain just sees it as part of the "restricted traveling" paradox.

First off, let's see what happens with the lore. Second of all, if people are only joining one at a time with Rune/Geo jobs, what's the paradox? Assuming that we don't get a huge influx of RPers/Characters with the job.

First off, let's see what happens with the lore. Second of all, if people are only joining one at a time with Rune/Geo jobs, what's the paradox? Assuming that we don't get a huge influx of RPers/Characters with the job.Saerun

I think Drae's discussion, as well as mine, were expressing concerns in the not-so-impossible case that we'd get swarmed by people using the new jobs (cause New Is Cool). You remember what happened with Blue Mage, no? Almost everybody in the cast had been a BLU at least once at a certain point. Aside the horrible lore-breaking aspect of that (which is hopefully an exclusive of BLU and won't happen with GEO and RNF), it made several players feel uncomfortable.

As for the storyline order, it was settled to be in chronological order of RL release, and whenever I'd ask for a reconfirmation, I was assured things weren't going to change, so I made plans for my character. I know lots of people don't like to do it, but I do and know others do. To RP Adoulin after AU would cut me out, so on my part there is a conflict of interest – that by no means I ask or care for anyone to put into consideration – that forces me to say no to that idea. Again, if people really can't live without Adoulin, I suggest to keep it within the exclusive scenario. That would allow you, (you as in, the player who wants Adoulin, none specific) to enjoy what you want, and me (the player who doesn't want Adoulin yet) to enjoy what I want. No reason to force either side into something that makes them pout.

EDIT: Sorry, made a mistake at first and clicked on 'edit' instead of 'quote' on your post Sae, I didn't cancel or change anything x_x

Also, just to clarify a couple things:

Whatever we decide on how to handle Adoulin in the current timeframe, can always been changed later on. Nothing we determine here will be set in stone, so to speak; if a month passes and people want to put this to a vote again, we will. So think of this conversation as a resolution on how to approach Adoulin now, in the current time.

Regarding the three votes in the 'joke option,' please keep in mind that votes in that section will effectively be counted as neither for nor against any option. If this is alright with you, you can keep the votes there, but if this is a topic you feel strongly about, you should change it to something else.

With regards to the chronological order of things, and whether Adoulin could come after Aht Urhgan, it's possible that in terms of storyline and plot that it could be possible. However, I know that several roleplayers have plans that became very entrenched and centered around the storylines in a certain way before Adoulin was even announced (and we were all pretty sure WotG was the last expansion we'd see). Hopefully though with the Adoulin side-RP scenario that we'll have going though, this should be fine with everyone. :)