Hey all,

So as you all know, we are in the final phases of Chains of Promathia. The only thing that remains are a couple of stray cutscenes that we need to pick up here and there, but those aside, we're pretty much done. I expect that we'll have the final cutscenes wrapped up within a week, and then we'll be jumping into a period of socials for the next few weeks before beginning Treasures of Aht Urhgan.

This sort of… 'downtime,' between expansions, I think is a really good time to sit back and take a look at the RP group as a whole. Things that have worked, things that haven't, and most importantly, using these reflections to determine a productive direction for the group to take.

First, I'd like to talk about the things that have gone well. Starting about a year ago, we made a group decision to deviate from our usual pattern of one mission a week. I think the current pattern doing more socials per mission RPs has vastly benefitted the group, and allowed for a lot more creative storylines on the part of our members.

The social RPs, themselves, have vastly improved. Whether through dreams of Mirror, the various adventures through the Company Board (including the 'D' plot), our battles with the Scorpio Corps, background and character development such as Sobe's interactions with her father, to the blooming love stories between Aurou and Nod, Sae and Jericho, Avina and Kenjii, Zetireti and Muriru, there was a lot to be had in this expansion, and a lot came from these socials, and by no means is this an exhaustive list of 'significant events.'

I know it hasn't always made the most sense with the storyline, but I think that the resulting freedom from staggering the missions further apart has been successful in making the social much more relevant. Going along with this idea of more freedom, I have tried to reflect the desires of the group as a whole and allow a lot more… stretches to the traditional rules, provided that people check in with me first. I think though that people still think that I'm as strict as I used to be, and I realize that it will take time for that image to change. But hey, if there's something you really want to do, let me know! I think that anyone who has submitted something to me to approve over the last year would argue in my favor that I always make an effort to try and find a way to make their idea work. I may suggest small tweaks at times, but I try to leave the reins to you as much as I can.

I also think it's worth noting the new members that this shell has brought in over the past year. I know Kirious was there for the tail end of San d'Oria, and Draenen came along shortly after that, if I recall correctly. We also picked up Muriru along the trail, and had some returns of Nodem, Daltan and Obtuse as well. More recently, we've recruited Zindelo, and I'm looking forward to jumping into the next expansion with him in tow.

However, with all this progress, there is surely some things we can work on, yeah? Yeah! So I've been collecting impressions on the RP shell throughout Chains of Promathia, as well as recently. And I think that, going forward, these are things that I am hopeful can be addressed.

Addressing RP 'Cliques':

This issue really isn't addressed towards anyone in particular, before people start assuming that. There has been complaints from a wide range of people in the linkshell targeting different groups as being 'exclusive' or at least, not as welcoming as others. I don't think anyone would deny, either, that there has been some degree of animosity towards others based on their in-character choices, and out-of-character frustrations with them.

I don't want this to turn into a bash thread or for people to get defensive about why they have handled things the way they have. I don't think at this point it would be productive to point fingers.

Instead, I would like the RP members as a whole to make it a priority that, during these pre-expansion period, to really focus on establishing meaningful ties with other members in the group and not just the casual "How are you doing?" sort of talk. And I pose this challenge to each member who is here. If you are planning a plot for example, try not to use only the same people. Throw a wrench in there sometime and randomly involve another character. A case in point, when I did Burald's reveal scene, I had to pick who he would cover to defend from the Aern's attack. There were a lot of characters who seemed more 'obvious' given his previous interactions with them, but because of that, I picked Draenen specifically because up until that point she had nothing really to do with Burald. And you know, it's carried a lot more consequence to it than I imagined it would: Draenen actually advocates for Burald now, and seems to think he's generally a good guy, in spite of what the others think. Burald recognizes this, and responded by helping carry Draenen out of sea and tending to her wounds. These results were completely unexpected by me, but I think they are awesome, and honestly, probably more meaningful than the interactions that would have resulted had I stuck with one of Burald's more 'staple' characters of interaction.

So whether you solve it with a dice roll, or you specifically pick out someone who hasn't been involved yet in your plot thus far, I encourage you all to seek methods to involve others in your character's interactions. Obviously, it's just not going to work for some characters to be able to reach out to everyone. But let's not have a whole group of people who don't establish ties with the same individuals. This is not to say that all interactions must be positive, in-character. You can involve someone without being buddy-buddy with them in-character.

I think that in terms of attendance, attendance does factor in a bit in terms of how your character will be received by others. Naturally people will grow closer to people they see more often, so I encourage at least coming to one RP a week. If it's a bad time for you, we understand. But even if you can only come part of the time, or only a couple times a month, I don't think that precludes you from having an important role.

Chat Log Clusterf**k Syndrome:

As we have grown, and taken on more members, the chat log has gotten pretty messy. A couple people will be talking about one thing, only to have someone else jump in and interject a completely random tidbit. Or, there is the timeless issue of people asking the same character a question back to back. I'm going to seek to suggestion some remedies on this that could be added to the rules later, and would like your input on these things:

On Topic!

I think that we need to be more aware during conversations with other characters. I think sometimes characters will be discussing a certain topic, and before they can finish, someone else brings up something else entirely. This sorta ends up becoming a situation where people go back and forth discussing two different things simultaneously and it ends up becoming a bit of a confusing mess.

Possible solution? I think that others outside of the conversation should give the people in the conversation a bit of space, or take part in the conversation. A lot of times these conversations would wrap up kind of quick without interruptions. To those who are in the conversation, try to consider the others who are waiting patiently, and try not to drag it on for too long.

Bombarded by lines:

Frequently people ask an individual character questions at once, back to back. I think as a general rule, we should decide to answer the question that appears in the person who is receiving the question's log first, and we cut the 2nd question asked to them. The 2nd question can be asked after they respond to the first, or later in the conversation, or never. I doubt our characters would really be asking multiple questions at once, so it seems to make sense that we should just go with the first question asked, and we can reask the 2nd one if needed. This way its not an issue of playing favorites or anything or carrying on two separate conversations altogether. However, going along with the above section "On-Topic," do try not to use this to change the current topic.

Embrace the Chaos:

Realize that no matter what we do, as the shell grows, some lines from characters are going to be missed. If you say something to a character, and they don't respond, people usually aren't doing it specifically to be hurtful and mean to you. Send them a little /tell to let them know that you posed a question to them. People have had to do it with me a few times and it is always helpful since I sometimes get distracted or look away for a moment and miss something.

If you character is ACTUALLY ignoring someone in-characterly, or is not responding to a character in-characterly, you should type an action *Character looks to Avina, but says nothing* in response to indicate that response. Even a simple *Doesn't reply* would be fine, but straight silence leaves the asker wondering if you are AFK, or just didn't see it, or are formulating their response, and they will often wait until you give something to indicate that you are responding to their message.

Open for discussion!

As always, any other suggestions you have, offer them up below! I don't kid myself for a moment that I am the only one with ideas on how to make this more enjoyable.

But I do think I am planning on putting off Aht Urhgan until we get a more unified group feel. This may or may not be longer than we had initially discussed for when we will start the expansion. But I think this is important to address before we launch into that. Right now, planning on that, tentatively, in a few weeks.

I believe you touched a lot of things Avi, but I have a few things I'd like to add as well.


"RP"

I have noticed the changes over time, and think the blend of RP and missions is getting better. There is a pretty even mix of "socials" and "missions" for the most part.

With that said…

I still feel this is a mission static that rp's most of the time. (Note: I didn't say RP's sometimes.) There are also some people who won't show up unless it's a "Mission RP," has to do with the "Missions," or has a pre-planned event (social rp) that night. This is why I tend to sigh away from missions as I do not need the mission frame work to progress my character in any way. My character can progress without NEEDING a mission line and has several times.



'Cliques'

Or, as stated above by Avina. Some people will only rp with a few people and ignore everybody else. I know that I am guilty of this myself at times, but it was just a character flaw that I have overcome a few times as Nodem (COR), and I feel that I haven't excluded anybody from RP's. I have on occasions (nobody is perfect) but most of the time I try to drag EVERYBODY into my madness, whatever I have planned.

When people aren't including others this tends to make socials un-socialable or people having to resort to rp with only a few people who they know that will RP with them. This is what makes the cliques more apparent to everybody.

If a person can't RP with everybody, then yes… They will only RP with those people that will RP with them. I have personally seen people flat out IGNORED by other players who were trying to RP with them. And not just once… But Multiple times. If this was the real world, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't ignore them when they are right in front of you trying to talk to you. You would at least give them some smart ass comment about getting out of their face or "leave me alone." But not giving anything shows a lack of respect to other people and your fellow RP'ers.

RP is suppose to be fun, but if you have a lack of respect for your fellow rp'ers… Why bother RP'ing to begin with? I have RP'd with people I disliked in the past and even though I didn't like them. It has never effected RP between our characters.

THE RESET BUTTON

I literally groaned every time I heard the words, "Let's pretend that didn't happen." or something to that affect. If you get KO'd or fail a BC and you just "pretend" that didn't happen it's as if you hit a reset button to retry. This makes me groan because I see it like this, If you can't learn from your mistakes then why bother?

Your character(s) are people too and failing is part of life. Nobody is perfect and nobody succeeds 100% of the time. When you fail a BC or something else what do you do? (outside of RP now) You learn from that mistake and try again with the knowledge needed to win. However the characters have never had to face this as that magic reset button keeps getting hit.

I'd like to see, if a BC, fight, etc, is lost that the characters pick themselves up and try again instead of the world reseting for them. Even heroes fall once or twice before they make it to the top.

This reset button also applies to when you die to a normal monster. You get your ass kicked and you adapt to kick it's ass next time. I see people get KO'd during battles and here's what I think SHOULD happen.

Player 1: Defeated
Player 2: *kills monster, wins BC, etc*
Player 3: Player 1 is hurt!
Player 4: Quick, let's carry them to safety!
Player 2: *carries Player 1*

I guess it's because I have a military mentally to a lot of things, or my life experiences. I know that if something happens that I can't RESET my life to fix the problems. I have to learn from my mistake, problem, etc and adapt to it.

All I can think of.

~PEACE

Alrighty now..! *cracks knuckles* Gonna add in some of my thoughts… Be warned, be scared!

Use of this site

These forums really are a wonderful tool, and to some extent I think it's one that's being underutilized. While there are definitely things that need to be discussed over the pearl prior to RP starting for the day (a quick briefing on what's on the schedule for that day to emergency re-scheduling) more in-depth discussions for the future would be better done here, where a thought can be completed without constant breaks in lines and for those who run late don't miss what could be an important conversation. A moderator and a set of rules might be needed to help keep the conversation on the proper track, but that's something that can be discussed at a later time.

A big bonus in this, in my opinion, would be that we could start RP sooner, and maybe take less time-outs mid-RP. Some members have time restrictions (school, work, whatever) and the heavy OOC chatter can really cut into the time they can spend online and RPing with us.

Expanded use of the calander function might also be worth looking into, when it comes to the mission-based RP sessions. What day, what time, what missions, and maybe relative links to the various wiki's so people have a starting point to do their appropriate research. Would probably need someone to step up to the plate to help with this as well.


The "Entertain Me!" syndrome

Oh man, this is one area where the group has improved GREATLY since I first joined y'all. Quite literally, it used to be "If Avi isn't here, there's no RP". Now, the group seems to be able to entertain itself for a while without Avina being the center of our world. I want to see this trend to continue growing to the point where, unless it's official Siren's Swords business or missions, Avina can opt to just sit back and just go with the flow.

… Am I allowed to make a challenge? I think I'd like to propose a challenge to the group: that I want to see everyone come up and run one of their own events for the rest of the group to participate in. Sounds hard? Guess what… it's not! I'll even start a list right here that people can pull from if they can't think of anything themseves: Fishing trip, relaxing at the hot springs in Holaris Peak, HNM Bubbly Bernie fights, foot races, ghost stories in the Necropolis or Oubliette, 'hunting trips', item retrieval, reworked reasons to do advanced job flag quests/limit breaks/missions/quests, skill-up parties…

And a related challenge to go with it: I want to see everyone come up with one reason to GO to these events. For example, a fishing trip. Even if you're not a fisherman, you could go along in hopes to see (and fight) pirates, you've heard stories about the Sea Horror/fished up monsters, you're an alchemist and can fix broken fishing poles, you're a cook and can make better bait and cook the fish, you want to EAT the cooked fish, you're trying to gather scientific measurements to prove that Vana'diel is flat or round… just come up with something!

The hot springs one… gonna tell you right now, back on Asura I threw one of those parties. Know how hard it was?

Me: Hey guys, I'm gonna throw a party at the springs at Holaris Peak next Saturday. Bringing bubble chocolate and fireworks!
LS member: Cool, what time?
LS member: My alchemy is high enough to make <insert type of fireworks here>, want me to make some?
LS member: I'll bring drinks!

That is seriously all I did, and about twenty people showed up. This was a non-RP group (though, funny enough, RP did happen when our resident BST used a jug and suddenly we had a tiger wreaking havoc in the water…). Non-LS members would pop after beating Maat and we'd cheer them and throw fireworks at them, and in general we just sat around in good atmosphere and hung out. If non-RP'ers can pull it off, certainly this group can too!

I think you did a good job of hitting the big points, Avi. I don't have too much to add that hasn't been said by any of you three already.

The cliquiness happens.. I'm guilty of it too. It's kinda always been here, and was something that Nod and I noticed way back when we joined. It's not bad, it's just people gravitating towards others that they are comfortable with. That being said, I'm always willing to RP with different people when I make events. Sometimes it turns out great, other times it just turns out awkward. But it is what it is. We have such a diverse group that it is always bound to happen in some form.

Balance
That word.. haha. Anyways, our mission/social balance has gotten much better! Socials do seem to be going better, especially with the events that people put together (such as Kiri's tournament and Drae's Mirror sequences). I still don't care for missions, they drag on and on and bore me… but I'm okay with that because I know other people love them. One thing about missions though, my dislike for them was reenforced with the Airship fight… there really is no need for arguing and complaining in the middle of the BC (or at all) if something doesn't go just as planned. If you miss the opportunity to RP a sequence you can always backtrack if everyone agrees! No need to throw a hissy fit about it. That whole mess of a BC was just off-putting to me.

Avi-centered
That's getting better. It still happens, no Avi no RP… but not as much. I've seen people (more than one person) say something to the effect of "Avi's not here today… guess I'll go do something else" and leave shell. I've seen that happen with new people in shell, which leaves a bad impression I'm sure. It's not fun explaining to someone what just happened when you've never had an OOC or IC conversation with them before. I don't even remember who it was, I don't think I've seen him in shell since….


That's all I've got. As a whole, we are doing very well and progressing as a shell. I love seeing the stories posted and character developments made during RP's. We're doing better with starting closer to start time too!

"Reset Button"

Most of you have noticed that I play through KOs with Kirious. He may be able to get back up on his own, but it generally takes him a few moments. (I'm actually keeping a record of time he's been KO'd IC for something)

I will add a counter point that there are some times where a "Reset" would be necessary. Fights against some of the bosses and events, like Promothia would not have a reasonable excuse to let us get back up if we wipe. The same goes for the first round against Blanche in the SC events. Initially he managed to KO the group, and this would not be an opponent that would simply let you walk away or recover. This only has to do with wipes, since whoever the opponent is, they may not have time to deliver a Coup de grace to a downed ally if the others are still attacking.

As for when an opponent wouldn't necessarily kill you on the spot, you can sometimes turn this into an entirely different RP. Let's say we have a freak-accident wipe in Xarcabard. For the demonstration, the party will be Avina, Draenen, Garonne,and Kenjii. Upon beating the party, the Kindred recognize Avina as one of the people that killed their boss, and remember Garonne and Kenjii accompanying her own an attack a month or so ago. Instead of killing them now, they decide to drag it out and make an example of them. They are brought back to Castle Z.

The party gets stripped of their gear, and start off in the basement. Being a thief, Draenen manages to pick the lock on her shackles with a hairpin provided by either Garonne or Avina. After unlocking the others, the now naked party KOs everything in their path on the way to where ever they determine the prisoner's equipment is being stored. Essentially collect your gear, and escape. Alternately, if anyone knows they are there, a rescue party could attempt to come and get them. This is just an example.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

Discussions on Mechanics and Lore


As we saw in Sea, there were a few arguments about whether the Linkshell worked or not. We had a similar issue in Tavnazia with Warps. I would like to get concrete details on where these things work, as well as start a bunch of discussions on Beastmen culture, Lore Arguments, and basically come to an agreement on a lot of the things that are never really either specifically stated, or are left as a loose end in the game.

An Example of this being all of the BLU lore. Kirious is played as a very durable individual due to it. As in a rapier through the heart won't kill him. He would defiantly notice it and it would incapacitate him for awhile, but that alone would not kill him. The BLU lore makes references to BLUs literally being Immortal, but with the Raubahn fight, a 'Highlander' element is added to it where it is made clear that they can in fact kill each other. My current thoughts for Kirious being that it would take either completely destroying the body, or decapitating him to remove him from the game. I'm sure someone'll argue with that, and that's why it's my example.

Hey guys. Okay, I've spent a lot of time reading and re-reading this trying to fill out my ideas and opinions… By the time the GW maintenance was over, most of my points had already been brought up by others. Most of all, I heavily support Avi's suggestion about keeping conversations on topic, and Drae's about using the site… that's really one I wanted to bring up. Use this site!!. Personally I could never live without it now. I am online on GW everyday for a reason or another.

I guess the only thing that I can think of right now, is the social topic and the Avi-centered issue several have brought up now. I think I can legitimately say that I have worked a lot to try to help with this, and still am, and am happy to see the improvements.

I love mission RPing, and admittedly socials had been really a drag for me. I didn't know what to, felt with no goal… all of that changed when others have started to put down social ideas and led me to eventually start my own too. The scenarios in particular are probably now my most favorite activity to RP. The Scorpio Corps, the (S) scenario, the hunts, Mirror's dreams, and now the incoming Secret Tournament I have worked so much on. It's all great. It's like whole new plotlines and I enjoy them greatly, especially when I see people RPing it out of schedules days because they simply couldn't wait. I have never RPd as much as I've been this summer! Sometimes social RPs happened even up to 5 days a week!

….And that's where I want to bring my point at. Many times in the past people have suggested to do more out-of-schedule social RPs. And that's welcome! There's never been more chances than now to do this! This is why I would like to see a bit more of participation to these things. It's great stuff and it helps to make more bonds and break cliques.

An example? I was heavily Avi-dependant until the beginning of the year. I had really no sincere friends aside him and no one to RP out-of-schedule with but him. Then one wonderful day I decided to make the (S) scenario and some others, Draenen and Kirious in particular, showed interest. It was awkward at first; I wasn't used to them; but then little by little I got to know both of them more and now can finally RP with someone else without feeling like I'm being dragged. This led me to make up even more ideas and to increase bonds IC with other characters. I broke out of my shell and I'm loving RP 200% more now. And I'd love to have this happen with other RPers too.

Now, of course I understand one doesn't have to forcefully RP someone's scenario/plot/idea if they don't like it. I don't want to force people to take part to (S) or anything else. But hey, if you don't like my ideas, make some others! I'd love more ideas, and more chances to RP new stuff!

It's not even that difficult to make up things. It can be quests like the Hunts or it could be completely made-up stuff like (S). It can be related to ToV's story or not at all. Free your creativity! Don't be afraid to try and propose things! I've ended up having to solo RP a lot of my own ideas, but people have also attended other ideas, and they were wonderful. Hell, one day I made up a whole excuse to RP some missions I'd have grinded OOCly instead, and enjoyed RP while bringing me and two other players to rank 6 in the process.

I think trying these things out would help solve a lot of issues that were brought up here, such as the need to sociale and make new bonds, break cliques, and grow out of Avi-dependance.

EDIT: Figured I'd add my opinion on the Reset Button thing since someone else has. Personally, I feel, as Kirious stated, that in some occurrences such as Promathia, a reset should be allowed. Another instance where I think it should be, is when a wipe is caused by some OOC actions (for example, the healer DCing or suddenly afking without notice). I RP Kenjii being weaker than his samurai was and don't mind him KOing from time to time. What I do mind though, is having to do so because of someone else's mistake. We don't all have self-sufficient jobs, and sometimes are dependable on others. In those occurrences, the 'victim', so to speak, should be able to choose if to actually fall unconscious or reset. Something interesting too could be using rolls to determine the damage the KO actually gives, as I've learned some RPers do. I'm looking forward implementing that method for myself. I'm also interested in Kirious's "HPing in jail" suggestion for certain wipe occurrences. That would be interesting too.
So yes, I don't think resetting should be banned but I am open to other ways if they sound logic and the wipe causes were fair. No one should be invincible and never fall.

P.S. I've just realized all this Avi-centered issue talk almost makes Avi look like a problem. XD Cheer up Avi, you're a great leader and we <3 you, even if you're not an hotdog.

Regarding the reset button as well… I'm actually fairly impressed with the group that it isn't being pushed all the time. We've had plenty of injuries as a result of a KO, and even dips into red HP. It might've been a problem in the past, but so far I've been pretty impressed by the group's willingness to RP being injured.

"What I do mind though, is having to do so because of someone else's mistake. We don't all have self-sufficient jobs, and sometimes are dependable on others. In those occurrences, the 'victim', so to speak, should be able to choose if to actually fall unconscious or reset."

For that, my opinion is 'tough.' While I'm not blaming anyone, I'm going to try to make a point with an example:

When Kirious got KO'd by the two ball things, he got hit with quake. I had stunned a move on the other, then tried to stun the one casting. That stun failed. Kenjii could have used violent Florish to stun it (I think he was /DNC at the time), Jericho could have casted Stun (Or was he a PLD at the time? Then Shield Bash), neither did. It resulted in my getting KO'd. From what I'm reading on KJ's post, that shouldn't have counted because it could be considered 'not my fault.' I still played it, and Kirious might remember that. The point I'm trying to make is that we're supposed to be a team, and we're supposed to act as one. If the tank or healer screws up and doesn't manage to get to you in time, tough. I understand that not every character wants to be like Kirious and hold grudges against everyone. But unless it's a wipe that would KILL us or otherwise doom all of Thundera, I think we should play it through.

When myself and Saerun went into the ENM that no one else could enter, we got our asses kicked. Kirious STILL holds a grudge about that, and it had a pretty big effect on Saerun's character too. We should try and play through as often as possible

I sort of see this 'it wasn't my fault' snowballing into a blame game every time someone gets KO'd. Maybe not with the current crew members, but possibly future members. We've all seen and played with 'Hero' RPers who can't play their class worth a damn but see themselves as mighty, invincible god-men that will try and get around every KO they can to make themselves look like Legendary Heroes.

Now for DCs, yeah, that happens, I'm totally willing to restart for those times.

Yes, that's what I meant. Accidents. I did in fact offer you to reset that time. I hadn't seen the Quake incoming, and Jeri probably didn't as well. Not discussing that. Is moments where you really have no power to control the chance of wipe that I think should be able to use the reset button, such as a healer or tank DCing (what's a tank nowadays… ? I know. Was making an example).

Yeah, I was given the chance to reset it, but why bother? Sure, it was an accident, and accidents happen. But that's the point. "Accidents happen", even IC. It happened, and I rolled with it. People sometimes do things I didn't expect or want them to. When it happens, I roll with it. If something doesn't go our way, I still like the idea of using it is it's salvageable to any degree.

At this point I think we can pretty much universally agree we don't want our characters dead-dead, so we will likely eventually need some resets. But that KO didn't kill the character, so why not use it?